Would You Rather? Hiring, Firing, and Hard Choices

[0:01]

(JADE)  It's so common in the beauty industry that we have these toxic workplaces and we're just all content with being in them. And there's no one to be like, what are we doing here? 

(SHANALIE) That's a tough one 'cause sometimes your most stressful person is also your highest-grossing, so people get really put in a corner with that and they feel like their hands are tied.

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[00:40]

(DANIEL) Today's episode is a little different. We're playing a thoughtful round of ‘Would You Rather?’ with some real-world decisions that business owners and team members have to make all the time. Would you rather let go of a toxic client, lose your top performer, or your most loyal manager? 

These aren't just hypotheticals. They're the kinds of choices that shape your business, your culture, and your peace of mind. We'll walk through the trade-offs, share some personal stories, and reflect on how to make these decisions in real time. Let's get into it. Number one, would you rather fire a toxic client or fire a toxic team member?

(JOZ) I would personally say fire the toxic team member. And I say that because I think of, have you heard the saying the apple, one spoiled apple spoils a whole bunch? That would be my scenario in my head. This could spread to other individuals. It could be harder to figure out exactly how to round it up and whatever the solution is that needs to be done, it's gonna be a little bit harder.

But there's a client you can kind of manage that. You can give specific rules, set standards, and then go from there. But yeah, it's a lot harder with an actual staff member 'cause it can just go to each individual and get worse and worse, you know? 

(SHANALIE) I totally agree with you. There's gonna be a loss of revenue either way, right?

We're gonna lose some revenue, whether it's a client, we're gonna lose some revenue, whether it's a team member. But what drives me crazy is the kitchen talk. The kitchen banter, right? So if somebody has a skewed perception, they think things aren't fair [or] they have some sort of gripe. They're gonna talk about it. They're gonna go complain about it, and it's very easy to have someone join them in that thinking process or that negativity or anything like that. So, yeah. I'm, I'm with you, Joss, team member. 

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[2:21]

(JADE) 100 percent. I feel like everything that you guys both said—toxicity spreads so easily. So when it comes to having your team, you really have to make sure that your foundation is set. And if you have somebody who is throwing that off, that's throwing everything off and impacting the business in multiple different ways.

(DANIEL) I'm gonna provide a counterpoint, which is what I personally prefer to do, which is easier, and I think that is the toxic client. I would so much rather have to fire a toxic client because there's nothing that I can’t stand more than an entitled person who treats your friends and teammates poorly and thinks that they can continue to do that because they're giving you money.

But as far as impact on the business, I think we all agree that the toxic team member is probably more hurtful. 

(SHANALIE) No, it's very true. It's very satisfying to let go of a toxic client. There's a lot that comes with that. 'cause it's gonna end up in a Yelp review, a TikTok, a referral's gonna hear about it, whatever.

But I'm willing to take that risk if it means getting rid of someone who is gonna cause more harm, you know? 

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[3:25]

(JOZ) I think the worst is someone going to social media. And not even giving a chance to maybe talk about a specific issue that they're having - just go straight to social media and have that be the venting.

So when it comes to that, I might change my mind and say I would fire them instead of a staff member. 

(JADE) But I feel like sometimes, too, when you're reading through Yelp reviews or Google reviews and you see somebody who's upset sometimes you can decode that and you're like, mm-hmm, I think you're the problem. 

(SHANALIE) Yeah. I like going to, once I see a negative review, I'm like, let me go to this person's profile and then it's like nothing but negative reviews. I'm like, ooh, you're the problem, girl. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. 

(DANIEL) What do we think the line is when it comes to a toxic team member? When does that, when do they cross the line as to make it more beneficial for you to let them go? You know, say they're providing a lot of service revenue for you, like what's that line?

(JOZ)  I feel like if it's anything that has to do with me spending more time doing, like trying to fix an issue or working with them specifically.

There was something that you said a couple years ago and it stuck with me, and I might not say it a hundred percent correctly, but the majority of the time that you're spending with someone is usually like the problem children versus your top performers. And I think if you're having to spend that extra time on anything that's, anyone that's toxic or anybody that you know is becoming an issue, that's when you have to look at it and be like, okay, let me see where I can spend the majority of my time to enhance whatever the issue, like enhance, you know, financials or enhance the experience or you know. So you have to definitely look at that. It's like, am I spending too much time with this person? And if so, I need to reorganize and figure out how to do something different. 

(SHANALIE) Yeah. For me, I take it back to day one, right? I wanna make sure every team member, like, this comes back to process, right?

Everyone knows what's expected of them and what's unacceptable within our culture, our environment, and all of that. So if there's something that I could point to that says, Hey, you know, we don't behave this way. We don't speak to each other this way. We don't do this to each other. We don't treat our clients that way. I'm all about creating that process where everyone understands what's expected of them 'cause sometimes that's so confusing, right? Where, especially around culture,  if you don't have that laid out for your teams, then it's very easy for you to, even if you're not toxic or mean, you could maybe be lazy. Maybe you're not accountable. Those are just as harmful. Helping folks understand what's expected of them. So then when they do cross that line, we could say, Hey, you know, we talked about this. Take a look at our handbook, take a look at what we've discussed before. I think that kind of does all of the work for you, like right there, if you have those boundaries set in stone upfront. 

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[6:10]

(JADE) A hundred percent. I think for me, when they start impacting the team in a negative way. When we talk about that toxicity spreading, where you have other team members who are either starting to join in on the negativity. Or it's impacting them in a negative way where they're coming to you and they're like, this is starting to be a really toxic workplace for me to be at, that I no longer want to be.

And I feel like it's so common in the beauty industry that we have these toxic workplaces and we're just all content with being in them. And there's no one to be like, what are we doing here? Why aren't we setting those expectations and those standards so we're not making this a recurring issue? 

(JOZ) Like, if you're stressing the whole team, we need to figure something else out.

(SHANALIE) That's a tough one 'cause sometimes your most stressful person is also your highest-grossing, so people get really put in a corner with that and they feel like their hands are tied. Bu,t you know, you really have to double down on the expectations there because then you're breeding younger generations to behave just like that.

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[7:09]

(DANIEL) Let's move on to the next question. Would you rather lose your top-performing provider or your most loyal manager? 

(JOZ) Definitely the top performing provider because, one, really, really good managers are not like a dime a dozen. You gotta fight to find the right type of manager.

And managers have, I feel like they have a stronger impact on all of the employees because they're the ones helping to maintain the culture and they're the ones that are there for support. And then I think of it kind of selfishly for myself that I am then going to have to, like, if I were to let go of a manager, I'm gonna then have to take over their job plus mine.

So it's gonna be emotional stress. It's gonna be stress for the team. Definitely. The staff member, not the manager. They stick it with me. 

(SHANALIE) Yeah, managers. In a salon spa, medspa, it's such a niche position and it does take a specific personality to be able to take on that responsibility, hold people accountable, [and] do the whole thing.

So I agree, definitely lose the highest-grossing person because let's face it, those are numbers, those are services, and there's more people who are doing the services and hitting those numbers. Or you can invest in someone who's maybe not quite there and get them to that point, you know?

But without that stellar manager, it is chaos. And then you're like answering the phones, you're doing the whole thing, and then you're crying later, you know? 

(JADE) You're burnt out.

(JOZ) It's been one week and you're like, oh my goodness. 

(SHANALIE) Don't talk to me. Like, yeah, we've all been there.

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[8:41]

(JADE) Yeah, absolutely agree. I feel like, like you just mentioned, you can take somebody who may not be the top performer, invest into them, invest into your team to build them up to be a better performer, much easier than you can try to replace a manager who's loyal, who's doing what they should be doing, and building your team.

(JOZ) I mean, as a manager, I feel like that should already be in place. Technically, if you're doing it right, you should already have a number two and number three, almost in place where you're like, okay, they're gonna be next in anyway so this is my time to have them shine. And no service provider's gonna stay with a business forever. Always be prepared and have that plan B, plan C. 

(JADE)  Definitely thinking long-term versus right now. Who's making me the most money? 

(SHANALIE) What about you, Daniel? 

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[9:28]

(DANIEL) Yeah, I think, I think I would agree.  I think we're probably all maybe a little biased because we all had to do it.

To all of your points, focusing solely on the top-performing service provider, it's just like constantly chasing the money and constantly trying to placate, too, a specific person or individual. But your manager is gonna have so much more impact overall on your business than a singular person, even though you may take a monetary hit, you know, temporarily. 

Cool. Let's go on to the next one. Would you rather upsell services in person or use smart prompts during online booking?

(JADE) This is tough 'cause I wanna say both, but honestly. But if I have to pick, well, I'll keep my answer as-is. I think it is both. I think it starts with upselling in that online booking process, where you're not necessarily truly upselling them. You're more so just kind of peaking interest, putting out information, educational info for them to grasp, and then when they come in is when you can close it. When you're asking those open-ended questions, you're digging for more information to really tie it to what those other services are or combining treatments. 

(JOZ) I agree. I actually was going to say somewhat similar to what you just mentioned, like you are starting that process at the time of online booking. So you're capturing that interest or just the thought of them saying, ‘Okay, this might be something I want.’ But imagine someone being able to get an add-on at the time of online booking and you're able to upsell them while you're in the treatment room. You're getting double the add-on. So there's multiple opportunities and again, it's all in the way you present it so you get extra revenue for both, you know?

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[11:06]

(SHANALIE) So I have a little bit of data on this one, so I agree it is both. But we recently did a great blog and we'll plug it here. Boulevard's Best, awesome series for bite-sized benchmarks, quick and easy to learn something. So we actually looked at one around add-ons, and actually, for folks who have them turned on in online booking, 46% of them were actually coming during the time of booking.

Because, let's face it, we're all like scrolling along. We had to get an idea in our head. We wanna book a service. And then you have that time when you're sitting there and you're perusing through everything and you're like, ‘Oh, okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna add on this.’ I can Google some things if I don't quite understand what it is. So I, I have that moment and sometimes, when you're in person and you're put on the spot there with someone, it's a little overwhelming to make that decision. 

And sometimes you feel like you're being sold to, and when you have these smart prompts through the online booking process, you don't feel like you're being upsold. You're just taking a look at the lay of the land. So I wasn't totally surprised when we saw that data at Boulevard with that piece. So I thought that was really interesting. But I agree. Your service providers [are] what's gonna close the loop there, just as you both said, but, if we could take that off their plate and get half of the work done before folks even come in, why not, you know?

(DANIEL) Yeah. I think culturally too, at this moment where we're always on our phones, I would so much prefer not to have somebody ask me if I want to do something extra or talk to me at all when I go into a store or something. Personally, if I can learn more about other options in the online booking process, I would do that 100%.

 I feel like I always remember this thing that we were told, which is people want to book more services. They want to do more things at your business, at your salon, whatever it may be. You just have to ask them. You have to tell them. You have to give them the information. Putting them on the spot; it's stressful. You don't wanna make the wrong decision. But giving them that information in a place that is comfortable, either phone, wherever they may be at that moment, allows them that freedom  to decide without pressure.

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[13:18]

(SHANALIE) Yeah, it's so true 'cause like think about it, even when you walk into a store and let's say you're buying a gift for someone or you're replenishing makeup, a new dress, whatever it is, you know, you're gonna buy something and someone asks you if you need help, and you're like, ‘No, I'm okay.’

And you're like, ‘I'm gonna figure this out on my [own]’. You might not even know where it is, but you're still gonna almost struggle through and figure it out. This is just, it's a little bit of social anxiety. It's in our nature. Like we're all curious people. And sometimes I go into some of those situations and already have this frame of mind where I'm like, ‘I'm gonna say no, I'm gonna say no.’ You know, every time I'm definitely more open, right? Even when I'm like, ‘Oh wait, I'm kind of interested.’ But I definitely am more open to things if I can really look at what it is, how much it costs, what it means, what it's tied to.

Like, oh, I didn't even know that you could do that with a color service or this or that. So it's just, it allows me to be curious in the right moment and not have to be like, okay, I'm in front of the mirror and other people are here, and, okay, yes, no, whatever. You know, it's, it's too much. I can barely order my drink in a timely manner. Yeah. So mobile ordering is my best friend. I'll go pick it up myself. You don't need to deliver it to me, but it's hard for me to do the talking all the time.

(JOZ) I do feel like it also depends on the description. You have to have a good description in order to better understand why it's like paired with that specific service. I have seen both. I've seen really good descriptions. It has the price, it has everything listed, and then I've seen just the name of what the service is, and I'm like, what do I do with this? I don't even know exactly what it is. So yeah, you sometimes you have to go and do that research, but if you have that good description already in there, chef's kiss, it's perfect.

(SHANALIE) More marketing for you, right? 

(JOZ) Yeah, it's just easy. 

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[15:04]

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(DANIEL)  All right, our next one. This one's a little difficult, but would you rather go viral for the wrong reason or have zero social presence at all? 

(JADE) You know, I feel like I'm gonna have to say no social media presence at all, because I feel like we live in the age of social media where everybody's looking to go viral, everybody's looking for followers, likes, clicks, all of the things.

I don't feel like you're gonna have much impact on the business in a positive light by having this huge viral negative moment where you're seeing any benefit from it. Whereas, if you have no social media presence, that doesn't diminish your business in any way, the client experience can still be amazing. Just different in a way. 

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[16:19]

(SHANALIE) Okay, so I have a different take on that. I would, honestly, okay, hear me out. Okay, so I would like to go viral for the wrong reasons because who doesn't love a comeback story? Okay, this is true, right? Also, if you look, this is like completely, like crazy, but do you guys remember that video of that girl who's baby had RSV and she's in the hospital like doing a TikTok dance?

Well, they went viral and now they have a Hulu TV show. Yes they do. Listen, not the best moment for that woman right now, she's on TV, so there you go. But you know, I think people can grow from it. I think people go viral for a lot of different reasons.

So, maybe it's a client and she's like, look how janky my hair looks, or whatever it is. But I do think people can come back from those moments because, yes, it feels like a little bit of a stain, but people forget things like this. You know what I'm saying? And also, if you think about service providers, think about what the first picture you posted looked like versus now, right?

There's some embarrassing content in there for all of us and we all grow and we all learn from it and we get better. And I've seen some people go from like zero to like a million and there's a lot of stuff that they hated along the way. But you know, the journey's up and down. We make it work, you know?

So I'm like, let's go viral baby. I'll come back from it. 

(JOZ) Same. I'm the same. I'll come [back]. I'll figure it out. I'll spin it into something that's gonna be funny at the end. I honestly think if there is no social media, if I look at a business and go to their site and I don't see a social media account, I auto - it freaks me out. I'm like, they're not a real business. Yeah. Scam. Scam, likely. Yeah.

(SHANALIE) I can't put my card on file, right? 

‍(JOZ) Like you don't have an Instagram. I need to have an account of some sort. It has to be. I'll figure out how to, you know, we'll get a PR company involved if we need to if it's that big.

(SHANALIE) How about you, Daniel? What do you think?

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[18:24]

(DANIEL) Yeah, I think, I don't know. I'm so, I'm very, I'm still very torn. I think you could turn a negative situation into something positive, if you were creative enough. But I don't, I mean, like me, I don't know that I would be able to actually turn in like a huge flop into like, if you reach like national news for something really bad, so extreme.

Like, if everyone's hair fell out after they came to your salon or something, how do you come back from that? 

(JADE) Yeah. What's a comeback story? 

(SHANALIE) I would, listen, I would start marketing to bald people immediately. 

(JOZ) There you go.

(JADE) Like, new demographic.

(SHANALIE) Scalp massage. 

(JOZ) Switch it all up, right? 

(SHANALIE)  Scalp massage, baby. 

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[19:12]

(DANIEL) Another one. Would you rather be fully booked but understaffed? Or fully staffed, but slow on bookings? 

(SHANALIE) I'm gonna go with understaffed and fully booked. I just think it's really scary when you have a full team and like nothing to provide.

I do believe that everyone should be trying to hustle up their own clients and doing that, marketing themselves, having those conversations, and filling their own books. However, as a brand, as a business, you have to develop your inbounds, right? People calling in, messaging in, wanting to know more about your business, getting on the books, all of that.

If you haven't built that out in your marketing, in your full-on strategy, then yeah, you have a big problem. It becomes very difficult to be able to keep staff members. So the way I look at it is even though they're fully staffed now and they have no one on the books, they're not gonna be fully staffed much longer, right?

People are gonna wanna leave. So while it's also a scary place to be when you're understaffed and fully booked, you have to start saying no to services, and that means people are gonna start going somewhere else. That's also scary. However, there are ways to work around that, right? Like, can you create some more space within your business?

Can you develop someone faster? Is there an assistant or apprentice on staff that maybe can start handling some blowouts? Can they start, you know, helping out with the glosses and things like that. Are there services that you could start involving more junior team members, like faster?

You can also create a faster training program, right? There's more options when you got the clients coming in, because let's face it, those are the people paying the bills at the end of the day, and people are happy when they're fully booked. They're like, that's what everyone aims for. Right? So that's how I feel.

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[20:59]

(JOZ) Yeah. I think coming from the spa world, that was a constant conversation that we were having. Like, how can we make more space? Should we do massages in cabanas out by the pool now because we have all of the rooms full, or is there a storage room that we could turn into a treatment room?

We were constantly in that conversation. So I think that, yeah, that is important. And then also you have to make sure you're optimizing your schedule. I feel like that's one thing that some people may struggle with, and it could be like their online booking system that has it all janky, or it could be them not just understanding how to optimize it. But there are ways where you can extend 15 minutes earlier in the day and it reflects throughout the entire schedule.

And you could fit in, you know, another one or two appointments within that service provider schedule. So you just have to be really strategic with it, so I would look for ways to optimize it as well. 

(JADE) I love that and I agree with you both. I think being understaffed is a great indicator of business. It shows that there's room for growth versus if you are overstaffed, which I feel is such a common thing, especially in medspas specifically.

You open a new business, you staff as much as you can, and then you're like, okay, how are we getting these clients? Where are they coming from? And everybody's just sitting around. And in that type of environment, no one's making money, no one's hustling to be seeing clients, so then they're starting to look for other avenues.

I, as a service provider, would've much rather been booked and busy than coming in and trying to figure out ways to market to clients or trying to figure out ways to fill my books. 

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[22:29]

(DANIEL) Yeah, absolutely. I think fully booked is the problem that you want to have.  I don't think anybody's looking at a fully booked restaurant and thinking that they're doing poorly because they have reservations. Like that's true five months out. And I think from a business perspective, if you are fully booked and you don't have the capacity to take more, that means now you can start looking at another location or expanding. There's plenty of investor money that's going to come in because you're showing that you have booked out your capacity at your current location.

‍(SHANALIE) I think Jocelyn made a really interesting point and it just reminded [me] when we were managing salons, Boulevard’s Precision Scheduling saved some of that nightmare, like the booking the back to back and keeping things really strategic, what they're offering. And all of that really goes a long way that sometimes you might feel overbooked or fully booked, but maybe there's some things you can do.

Do you really need 30 minutes for that? Can we do this in 15 and have an assistant take over, do this or, or whatever it may be? Like, starting to get really strategic about the time that's being spent without letting any part of the client experience suffer. You know, so there's, it's so awesome that there's tools that will just do it for you.

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[23:44]

(JOZ) One of the things that we did during the summertime, because we were extremely busy during the summertime, we would have an attendant to flip all of the rooms in between massages or when they're doing facials. And that made it so that the service provider didn't have to do that 15-minute cleanup.

They could just go to their next one, grab some water, grab a snack, and then go to their next one. And the client, of course, didn't have any [understanding], they knew nothing about what was going on. Everything was smooth for them. So, there are definitely tricks and tips that you can, you know, dabble into to help with that.

(SHANALIE) That's so smart. So they're just like in the game too, they just focus. As, you know, folks who are like providers too, you wanna keep them in the mode of providing and then when they're cleaning and doing them between, they gotta get warmed up again, you know? Yeah. So I love that.

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[24:28]

(DANIEL) Okay, last one. Would you rather build a brand on TikTok or dominate SEO and email? 

(SHANALIE) This is one that I have to say both. You find different audiences there, right? Everyone consumes content differently. So TikTok, I think you can appeal to the masses and whatnot, but things like SEO and like an email marketing strategy allow you to really target who you're going after and the people searching for things that fall into your wheelhouse. Now, with that, AI has definitely changed the landscape of SEO and everything, right? No one clicks on anything anymore. We Google what we're looking for. Gemini tells us right away ChatGPT tells us right away. So we're definitely consuming this information differently.

But I think, these are different channels. You have your social media channel, you have your email marketing, your SEO. They're all important in building that awareness for your brand and getting your name out there. So I, I really don't think you could do one or the other. I think you need to do both and bring the appropriate content to those channels that are gonna hit home for these folks.

(JADE) I agree completely. I think it's tough. Because I think you also need to look at your clientele and understand the demographic of folks that you are trying to reach. When we talk about kind of the difference in generations being on social media and people going to TikTok and Instagram to Google things versus actually hopping onto their Safari or their browser to do so.

So I think absolutely both can be beneficial, but really understanding your target audience and who you're trying to reach with whatever content you're putting out. 

(JOZ) That's exactly what my answer would be. Even if I am doing well with a specific audience and I need to go towards the Millennials or the Gen Zs more than I'm gonna go to the TikTok.  lt depends on exactly what I'm looking for. I'll find that first and then understand my audience and then go from there. Because both, yeah, both are very beneficial. It just depends on who you're trying to reach out to. 

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[26:24]

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(DANIEL) Do we think that there's more longevity to one versus the other? To me, my initial thought would be that the clients you receive from TikTok may not be ones that come back as often as other people, but I think that could be completely wrong.

(JOZ) I mean, it depends. It depends. It depends on the content. It depends on what exactly you're selling. You can definitely create, are you saying like the Gen Zers are not the ones that…?

(DANIEL) No more like trendy things. Like if you are hopping on a trend, the people that are searching for that trend are going to be searching for the next trend, and then you're always doing that as opposed to getting that client who really wants what you're providing. 

(JOZ) I see what you're saying. I don't know now. I have no idea. 

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[27:06]

(JADE) I feel like if you're chasing viral moments, then absolutely there's not gonna be that return, that loyalty that you're gonna get from your client base. But if you're putting out content that's educational, informative, that's actually capturing the audience that you want and selling your services at the same time or what you're doing, then you have room to be able to have that long-term relationship, longevity with returning clients. 

(SHANALIE) Yeah, I think you could find a transient client in any format. You know what I'm saying? Like, that could be like, somebody just wanted a quick blowout and you were the closest thing. And you know, when they called in and, and whatnot, maybe somebody saw a post online or, or whatever it is, or they quickly searched and you popped up. I think it happens in all of your channels, right? Where there's folks that might not stick. But to Jade's point, you create that content that resonates, you'll find your people. And even then, even if you, this person is your ideal customer, they still might not stick, you know?

So I think you have to play the game in all of it, and we've heard some other guests talk about not having to do all of the trends. You don't have to do the TikTok dances and stuff like that. So if that's not something that's sustainable for you, like you're not into doing the TikTok dances and whatnot, don't do it because it's gonna draw in clients.

And people who are drawn to that want more of that. And if that dips off, then yeah, you're not exactly what they were initially buying into. So it is our responsibility to make sure whatever we're putting out there, it aligns with our brand, our messaging, who we are as a whole, and is sustainable more than anything.

(DANIEL) Great points. Thank you so much for listening to Last Client of the Day. We've had a lot of fun here. If you wanna get any more tips on any of these topics, be sure to check out Joinblvd.com/blog.

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[28:59]

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